Musing on D/s

[shadesong]

Yah. Be forewarned. This post has to do both with D/s and with the psychic pagany stuff, so if you're not open-minded, you probably don't want to read this. :)

As bloody well everyone knows, I've been thinking a lot about the D/s thing lately... and elorie recently brought up a good point when she pointed out that part of what I get out of it - probably most of what I get out of it - is the major endorphin cascades that occur in trance states like subspace. That may very well be what I'm hooked on about it, and there are other ways that I can get that particular aspect. So hopefully I'm going to be learning about trancework.

Part two... the other thing I get out of it is the surrender. Of course it's the surrender. :) But part of why... I am very, very vulnerable when my shields are down. And when they're down is when I feel the most *alive*, when I get the most pleasure because I'm getting his or hers as well and multiplying it... fractals... gods, it's hard to explain. So what I need isn't necessarily a Dom so much as it is someone who's capable of protecting me while I allow my shields down, while I open myself entirely. Someone with whom I can feel safe when I'm utterly empathically vulnerable. Makes sense to me. Probably why very few Doms can actually put me under; they're not as strong as - or stronger than - me, in that regard.

This whole thing merits exploration.

Comments

[amberfox.livejournal.com]

*chuckles quietly* Sounds like what you need is a good coven, honey, not a Dom. Not a Wiccan group, though; they don't tend to do much trancework: it's not ceremonial enough.

[shadesong.livejournal.com]

I've never been in a coven... really never worked much with anyone else at all!

[amberfox.livejournal.com]

I've been in two, and that's pretty much the limit of my groupwork experience; iroshi and I Work together sometimes, but not often, and our ex-roommate ravensinger was rough for either of us to work with because of style conflict. (He used blood magick for a lot of things, and it hurts Ro to be around.)

A good group is like nothing else in this world. A mediocre one can be wonderful intermittently. And a *bad* one is Hell on Earth. But it's worth finding a few bad ones to find a Good one, if you can do it. I'll probably do a post in my journal once I warm up some. =)

[shadesong.livejournal.com]

I'm not looking for anything as formal or organized as a coven, but I'm becoming open to work with others on Stuff...

[mightywombat.livejournal.com]

I've never worked with a coven, but I learn well from watching and working with others, and so I've always been interested in joining a group, even an informal one. I generally don't do a lot of Work, mostly because I need an outside force to motivate me in many cases.

[elorie.livejournal.com]

Not true at all; not of the trad I've been practicing for years, Reclaiming, not true of the one I'm studying, which is Feri. Both are very very trance-work heavy. Which, if you've read "The Spiral Dance", should be pretty obvious, though there's more about trance work in "Truth or Dare" (also by Starhawk).

[amberfox.livejournal.com]

True. But neither Reclaiming nor Feri is Wiccan in the classic sense, though both use the word. *shrug* I suppose I should be more specific. Structured, hierarchal Wicca tends to be ceremonial in nature; everything is very formal, and form-al. Dianic (and Feri, I think, from what little I know) tends to be more personal and rather shamanic. It's sort of like the difference between Catholic and Non-denominational Christian.

Re:

[elorie.livejournal.com]

actually, they both call themselves "Witchcraft" mostly; and they're definitely shamanic. Feri is more of an individual path, though there are **some** Feri covens, it's not the rule. Reclaiming has been described as a Pagan cross between Pentecostals and Quakers...ecstatic, high energy, trancey, while organizationally pretty anarchistic, non-hierarchical and run by consensus.

The Wicca confusion is why some Gardnerian and associated trads have taken to calling themselves British Traditional Wicca....

[amberfox.livejournal.com]

Good description. ^_^ Pretty much all I know about Feri is that Victor Andersen is involved somewhere, and I'm not sure about that.

I fall somewhere between those on the authoritarian scale where covens are concerned. There's a lot of leeway, but some things are Not Acceptable, usually for reasons of safety. I'll explain why if there's time, but I'm not required to do so before I stop things. (No, I don't run a coven right now, but it's being considered, so I think about these things.)

Re:

[elorie.livejournal.com]

Well, when you run a group on consensus, any member can object to something the group is doing. Of course, that requires that the group **stick** to the consensus model and stop and pay attention when someone goes "I have a bad feeling about this...." And in general, what you're doing (including who is doing what) should be discussed before you begin...I've had bad experiences with that NOT working, but I've had more and worse experiences with the authoritarian model.

What it boils down to is trust. If you know and trust each other, then when one member of the group goes. "Er. This doesn't feel right." other people will listen. They will also learn by experience who tends to notice when things are wonky first, and who can hold it together when it is, and who tends to be kind of oblivious but makes a good human lightning rod...

[amberfox.livejournal.com]

That sounds nice. Generally what I've seen is groups that are supposed to run by concensus actually being majority rule: if most people think it sounds good, it's what you're doing, even if one or two people are really uncomfortable with the idea.

[teapot-farm.livejournal.com]

My impression so far is that consensus works well for small groups (5 or less) but becomes exponentially more difficult with each person you add...

[elorie.livejournal.com]

All of the Reclaiming groups run on consensus and they are able to pull off coordinating Witch Camps and are in some ways the most organised trad I know of...even though there's no central organization at all. It DOES take commitment and work and a good bit of effort. But it tends to be worth it, as the solutions you come up with working by consensus are often more creative than anything one person could come up with on their own. At it's best, it's rule-by-brainstorming.

[butterflydezi.livejournal.com]

smiling softly and reading your words...The common misconception about a submissive is that they are the weaker of the two in the exchange of power. That is not so. It takes a great amount of strength for one to let down all their guards and shields and give control to another person. It is very much a symbiotic relationship. For without the submissive there could be no dominate and vice versa. I've had experiences on both side. If you wish to discuss further just let me know.

[shadesong.livejournal.com]

The common misconception about a submissive is that they are the weaker of the two in the exchange of power. That is not so.

This I know... I'm many things, but I am *not* weak! :)

Re:

[butterflydezi.livejournal.com]

smiles. . .Aye, neither am I. I am very controlling in just about every other aspect of my life, but there is that side of me that longs to feel another take control. To be driven to my knees and feel the kiss of leather. . .

[iroshi.livejournal.com]

Personally, I find it far easier to understand the strong and controlling personality wanting to submit than I do the naturally submissive ones. But then, that's because that's where I am. I've *been* in the 24/7 position (just without the kink bonus, more's the pity!) and it drove me crazy...I understand some people like it/need it, but I don't *get* them, deep down.

Submission is a safe place to relax that control, to trust someone else enough to let *them* be in charge for a short period of time, to give the deepest, darkest part of yourself, that part that trusts so little that it needs to be in control all of the time (and that's something I've found pretty damn universal about people who need to be in control: it's because of lack of trust in others.) It's a rush, it's a temporary freedom, it's flying, to be able to give that part of you to someone else, and KNOW, with certainty, that they'll hold it with honor and care, and be strong enough to hold you up when you relax and let go.

(And 'song, you still owe me an email on this subject.)

Re:

[butterflydezi.livejournal.com]

I agree. I have never been 24/7 position, and do not think that I could handle that.

It is definately based on trust. I is also a very symbiotic relationship.

(and kink is definately a bonus!)

[shadesong.livejournal.com]

It's a rush, it's a temporary freedom, it's flying, to be able to give that part of you to someone else, and KNOW, with certainty, that they'll hold it with honor and care, and be strong enough to hold you up when you relax and let go.

Yes. Exactly. :)

[nukewolf.livejournal.com]

God, this is so on-target...

[morenasangre.livejournal.com]

This whole thing merits exploration.

I agree. Actually, I think it's really nifty that you've started considering and questing for the why behind it, that's the interesting stuff to me. And, so far, what you've said makes a lot of sense, particularly because you've explained before that the real power, the need is psychological D/s work, far more than the physicality. Go for it. Search, learn. Maybe you'll find something that's even better for you as well as better for other important things in your life.

*hugs*

[shadesong.livejournal.com]

That's me... I'm always looking for *why*...

[elorie.livejournal.com]

Empaths generally don't do well with shields; they create a kind of emotional/psychic sensory deprivation. Also, you can't heal with shields up, but you don't want to take on other people's stuff either.

The alternative to being cranked wide open all the time (which has its own problems) is to learn how to ground really, really well. That way, whatever it is can just flow **through** you, and if it's too much or it's off balance, it just goes into the earth.

[amberfox.livejournal.com]

Nitpick: Whether you can heal with shields up depends on what kind of healing you're doing. Reiki works just fine with shields up, though it works better with them down. Also, some people can filter their shields to allow some things through but not everything, or set them to one-way permeability.

Re:

[elorie.livejournal.com]

Makes it harder, though. And it's much better in many ways to be good and grounded. Grounding will save your butt in many many different situations...

[amberfox.livejournal.com]

Well, yes, it's preferable to be grounded. Personally I prefer to be grounded *and* shielded in a lot of situations, but being just grounded is nice in controlled situations, and under stress I'll take shielded without grounding if it's all I can manage. Being grounded all the time is better, but sometimes I lose it when I stress.

[catalyxt.livejournal.com]

Agreed. I do a lot of healing, and it is extremely rare that I take my shields down completely. Shield-control is the biggest first step for any empath or healer, IMO.

[shadesong.livejournal.com]

That's been a problem for me - taking on too much of other people's Stuff. Once, when asked to write a one-sentence description of myself starting with "I am", I wrote, "I am a vessel for other people's pain."

Re:

[elorie.livejournal.com]

Have been there and done that. Know how to fix it. As amberfox says...it's better to be grounded AND shielded in a lot of situations. But most people's shields are screwy, and for a lot of empaths they are problematic, and hardly anyone knows how to ground properly (So saith the triple Capricorn with three planets in Virgo....)

[iroshi.livejournal.com]

Speaking as an empath, I would go crazy without constant shielding. My shields almost *never* come down. I thin them occasionally for better reading of other people's emotions, but the only time they come down entirely is during D/s time. But even then, I merely merge mine into his, and I trust mcredneck to shield me as well as I need. Answering another comment at the same time, I have absolutely no difficulty doing healing with shields up. I can even heal someone through *their* shields, though it's more difficult, but the fact that I never send healing energy without permission gives me an 'in' through their shields, even when they don't know when, specifically, it's coming.

As for grounding 'properly'...heh. I 'ground' in air, not earth. I can draw energy from the earth, but I can't ground to it; I feel no affinity for it, and it doesn't give me stability. Air does. There's a reason I was given the name Windwalker.

[mightywombat.livejournal.com]

...most people's shields are screwy...

I can agree with this statement wholeheartedly, as a person with screwy shields. I've come to the realization that the reason I don't feel very strong emotions very often is that I've contained my emotional core in a set of very powerful shields. I didn't create these shields by a conscious effort, and they're that much more powerful for being subconsciously reinforced for the last decade or more.

I've also really enver quite gotten the hang of grounding. This might have something to do with my Attention Defecit, which keeps my brain running full tilt boogie whether I want it to or not. On the upside, my core shields (the only ones I've got) are strong enough that most things roll right off them and ground themselves out.

I'm empathic, but only a little as far as I can tell. I can sense strong emotion through my shields, but al it does is make me feel a little uncomfortable. I rarely break down because of hot tempers or high emotions. I'm also, apparently, a good ground for other people, who can (and do) fling their problems at me and let them run off my shields and ground out.

I think this may be the closest I've come to nailing down my problems with emotions yet. *whew!*

[shadesong.livejournal.com]

The shields and grounding stuff is stuff we can work on together... *hugs* elorie and iroshi can help! :)

Re: Empaths, shields, and grounding

[wolfieboy.livejournal.com]

Actually, I do just fine with shields. I would've gone insane in DC without them. Out here I don't need them to be cranked up quite as high but they are still very necessary.
I do actually ground like nobody's business. A futon that I grounded out a while back is still very sleep-inducing 15 months later.
I can take lots and lots of stuff thrown at me. It doesn't go through me though. It hits my shields and grounds out to the earth. Taking some of that stuff through me would suck royally.

As for healing, I don't have a problem with healing through shields my own or the other persons if they are accepting. It takes lots of work to get someone to pull down their shields, so I've learned to compensate.

Re: Empaths, shields, and grounding

[iroshi.livejournal.com]

A futon that I grounded out a while back is still very sleep-inducing 15 months later.

Whoo...I never thought of that! I'm going to have to try that one! :D

[voltbang.livejournal.com]

Well, I don't know about the pagan/psychic thing, but I know a bit about the other part. If the endorphin trance state is what you want out of D/s, you are looking in the wrong place, at least as I use the words. Endorphins come from SM. Maybe you need a top, instead of a dominant (word note again, dominate is a verb) or a master. I can understand what youa re saying about shields, but I don't see them in magical terms (there's an LJ post brewing about that subject, has been for days), just as a barrier to the kind of trust and communication a bottom and top need to rush the bottom off to endorphin land.


Electrical play is great for endorphins, BTW. And it doesn't leave marks. You can trance yourself nicely with a good TENS unit.

[shadesong.livejournal.com]

Electrical play is great for endorphins, BTW.

*recoils* Dear gods, no. Death first.

No, it isn't the SM I'm into. It's the empath thing more than the physiological thing...

[voltbang.livejournal.com]

Then where do the endorphins come from? I'm sure you can convince the mind it's a good time for them and they will come, but the easiest route is through the body.

[voltbang.livejournal.com]

That was typed unclearly, it's curiosity, not confrontation. It occured to me it could be read wrongishly.

[catalyxt.livejournal.com]

Open for Practice, as well.

And a.) hit me this weekend with a clue-by-four at Pride...but I had decided a while ago that it wasn't what I wanted in a relationship right now...this just put the lid on the casket.

As for the need to let go...I have an extremely heavily warded WorkSpace...I find that it accommodates my need to let go of shields quite handily without anyone else being around...I am generally too sensitive to let go of the shields completely when people are around in any case. If you need tips in terms of shielding self/others, I'm happy to share. iroshi also seems to have a good handle on it from what I've seen of her posts.

And I know what you mean about the selectivity with doms who aren't as strong psychically. Just doesn't work.

If you are doing ANY sort of trancework, please, please remember to ward your space first and set up an anchor and (also a good idea) a Guardian/Gatekeeper to watch your back. I've seen what happens sometimes when you don't--it ain't pretty. Glad you found a way to get what you need :)

[shadesong.livejournal.com]

*nod* Agreed to all of the above. :)

[kk1raven.livejournal.com]

I think it is great that you're looking at the "why" part of this and trying to find other ways that work for you to get what you need. Not being into either d/s stuff or pagany stuff, I can't comment on most of this, but I think you're going in a good direction with this kind of thinking.

[shadesong.livejournal.com]

Thanks for the encouragement and support! :)

[cyprinella]

Speaking as someone who is utterly mundane, I'm finding this all absolutely fancinating. Thank you for posting this.

[shadesong.livejournal.com]

Heh. Yeah, I can get kinda Out There sometimes, can't I? :)

[cyprinella]

Heh. Nah, you seem pretty stable to me. I was just raised in the land of That Is All Hokum so technical discussions are just neat, to me anyway.

[shadesong.livejournal.com]

Heh. Yeah, you'll likely see us get all technical over the next few weeks. :)

[elorie.livejournal.com]

As I seem to be getting prodded to get back into teaching, maybe we could organize something. Getting people kind of on the same page with skills is a Good Thing even if it never coalesces into a coven; it means that you CAN work with those people more easily if you need to, and it's also good for people to sort of patch up the gaps in what they've learned on their own. I'm a little reluctant to get back into teaching still but an informal get-together here and there wouldn't be a problem. I actually have credentials which I'm willing to recite if anyone is interested.

[shadesong.livejournal.com]

Right, we don't necessarily need anything formal... just gap-patching, for now. :)

[terminalwriter.livejournal.com]

I've always been very good at taking pain from people. It's been one of my gifts for a long time. It is almost instinct with people I care about, they're in pain, I automatically take pain from them. However, there is one person who I can never seem to get through there shields...my wife.

She claims up and down that she has no clue how she shields and I believe her. When she was in labor, her aunt's husband was able to do some good with her, though. Which always leaves me wondering, does she not trust me on some level or is she trying to protect me...