On boundaries and explosions

[shadesong]

I've been doing a lot of thinking and off-LJ discussion lately about boundaries and my lack thereof. The fundamental lack of boundaries is, for me, primarily an abuse-survivor thing... often I really have no idea of where normal boundaries should go.

I tend to welcome everyone into my life. I see beauty and potential and niftiness in everyone I meet, on LJ or off, and what I tend to do is take them in and cultivate that. Unfortunately, not all of them are people I ought to be doing that with. Which is pretty much impossible for me to tell at the time, as I only see the best until it's Too Late.

My lack of boundaries makes it easy for negative people to take advantage of me. This is a recurring pattern. And that doesn't mean sexually, always; more often, it's the people who move in and take up my life and energy with their artificial drama. Their "Oh, I want to change and grow, help me!" while they keep perpetuating the same behaviors that are screwing them up but, now, involving me, and exploding whenever I say something they don't want to hear. And I let this happen. I let it happen because I see the potential there for people like this to blossom and grow, and I ignore the fact that all they want to do is fester and infect others with their drama. And they keep pushing. And pushing. And pushing.

And when they finally cross that line, after months or years of abusive behavior, and I cannot take any more - I explode. Completely blow up. When that last straw snaps, I go from zero to raving bitch in 0.2 seconds.

And if you didn't know what was happening, if you didn't see the pattern of emotional vampirism that had been accumulating over time - you think, whoa, PMS, shadesong is such a bitch for no reason. When in reality, it's just that I've taken more bullshit from the person than any three other people could, and the dam finally broke.

mousegrrl and yendi have seen this in action and can vouch, and by one of her posts in which she says I'm way nicer than I should be to people, I think iroshi has twigged to it too. :)

As I said in the comments of an earlier post - I have managed to carry my optimism regarding the basic goodness of human nature this far, through everything... I'll be damned if I'm giving it up now. But I need to find a balance. Like I said in another prior post, right now that balance is having Mouse pick my friends for me, as she has great peple-sense and knew before she even met her that this last one was Trouble.

So. That's where this came from - I do not do this to people who piss me off *once*, it only happens when you've put me through enough bullshit that no jury would find me guilty if I beat you senseless. :) So I'm trying to not get to that point with anyone again. :)

Thank you, drive through.




Comments

[darkmattr.livejournal.com]

True, geez, how many times do I piss you off on a regular basis? Although you should still let me pick your friends.

[shadesong.livejournal.com]

Yeah, I've been putting up with you for, what, 4-5 years? I have to be the most patient person alive!

As for picking my friends, you just wanna be the boss of me. :P

[darkmattr.livejournal.com]

I am the boss of you!

[shadesong.livejournal.com]

You're so not. :)


a

[iroshi.livejournal.com]

:::::::ZEN HUGS:::::::

Of course I get it. But then, I usually see more than people expect me to. That's my Job.

Personally, I tend to assume *both* that people are going to fuck me over *and* to be annoyingly optomistic at the same time. It's an odd dichotomy, but for me, it works. They way it works is that I prepare backup plans so that I'm not relying on said people, and then once the backup plans are in place, I never worry about them and assume they're not going to get used. ^_^

[shadesong.livejournal.com]

At this point, I'm starting to expect you to understand my patterns better than I do... :)


X

[skylion.livejournal.com]

'song, I don't know quite how to respond on this one.
For one, I am a walking drama right now. "Oh, I want to change and grow, help me!" while they keep perpetuating the same behaviors that are screwing them up but, now, involving me, and exploding whenever I say something they don't want to hear. And I let this happen. I let it happen because I see the potential there for people like this to blossom and grow, and I ignore the fact that all they want to do is fester and infect others with their drama. And they keep pushing. And pushing. And pushing. I see this on a smaller, less personal scale, maybe it happens to you IRL, more than I can see it on LJ. I know that I have my fair share of stupid comments, in the least. Bad comments, at worst.
I don't know how much of this is your fault to begin with. tend to welcome everyone into my life. I see beauty and potential and niftiness in everyone I meet, on LJ or off, and what I tend to do is take them in and cultivate that. It's kind of, and forgive me for this, like fill one hand with trash and the other hand with hope, see which hand fills up first. An open door invites everyone in. And, again forgive me this, but having Mouse pick your friends might not be the answer. I don't know how choosy you could/should be. I tend to keep everyone at arm's length, and complain that I can't reach anyone. In this, I believe, we are opposites.
All in all, I don't know what to say. I know you are a caring, senative, kind individual. And I can see you going thru alot of stress. I dunno. I may have more to say later. I need to think on this one. I see to many cross paralles to my own life.

[iroshi.livejournal.com]

Actually, I think it's more like using mousegrrl as a filter, than having Mouse *control* her friends. If 'song knows, and she does, that she doesn't read people well, it's to her benefit to have someone who *does*, whom she *trusts*, that she knows if Mouse says someone isn't good for her, then it can save her heartache.

I know that I got a nasty lesson in trusting my own instincts last spring. I hadn't felt completely comfortable with someone, but I felt that a good relationship was developing between her and my hubby, and I kept hoping that she and I would warm up more to each other. I *liked* her, she was really nice, but I kept getting warning signals that she wasn't being as honest as she claimed to be...though I thought it was more out of romantic hesitancy than actual *dishonesty*...

Let's just say that when things blew up, they blew up with enough force that I am *never* going to ignore that little voice again.

And if 'song needs Mouse to be that little voice for her, I for one am just glad she has her. But then, if it were possible, I'd keep 'song from ever being hurt again. Regrettably, life doesn't work that way. But anything, nearly *anything* that will help keep her from being hurt, I'm in favour of.

[m0usegrrl.livejournal.com]

Actually, I think it's more like using mousegrrl as a filter, than having Mouse *control* her friends.

exactly. i have no intention of, nor any interest in, controlling anyone's friends or life. not 'song's, not anyone's. it pains me when i see a friend in a relationship or situation that i know is a train wreck waiting to happen, but the most i ever do is let them know exactly what i think -- it's up to them to act upon it or ignore me.

i also try to refrain from going "i told you so" when it turns out i was right. =)

[skylion.livejournal.com]

my senses tell me that alot of resentment can be built up by this situation. i know that it might not be the case. but I am looking at this glass of water as half empty. so the "it might" causes me to flinch. i don't want either one of you too get hurt. esp. you.

::hugs::

Re:

[skylion.livejournal.com]

"nearly anything"

i don't want 'song hurt anymore than you do. but i know that having anyone, no matter how close, pick up slack is an invite. if this is going to be the case, then I hope that both of them are sensative too one another. it does seem that they are. a writer and artist comic book combo, you can't beat that.

thanks for your reply...

[technoshaman.livejournal.com]

It took me a long time, and quite a few scars, to learn how to pick good people... so I'll impart this to you, that you may not have pain to share.

My late SO (may she rest in peace) had a post-it on her bathroom mirror, to-wit:

Insanity is doing the same thing over and over again and expecting different results.

I learned to see it in myself first (there wasn't much, but occasionally it was there, mostly to do with the current topic, i.e. picking friends), and then in others. When folks go around repeating the same stupid behavior again and again and then whining that things never change, ROOOBA ROOOBA! Time to go! Must make sure and hold such folks at arm's length, if not go screaming into the weeds.

OTOH, when I see folks like you and Iroshi and Jenkitty and such making the effort to get beyond such things, there lies hope, and good people. And folks like Mouse, who will stand by you and (more than likely) kick your ass when you need it and tell you why and get you to understand....

The fine art of picking people. A hard-won skill.... worth sharing.

I'd love to hear mousegrrl's thoughts.. :)

[m0usegrrl.livejournal.com]

i've done my share of "Size UK 3 Doc Martens Applied To Gluteus Maximus With Extreme Prejudice" lately, yeh... =)

i've had to learn the hard way how to read people, after finding myself getting sucked into the same situation over and over again with only the cast of characters changing. the trick is taking a step back and becoming an Observer rather than a Participant; this too is a hard skill to learn, especially as one of the Participants you're supposed to be Observing is Yourself. i'm a Chaos Surfer, so that ability to detach oneself from one's own situation is a bit easier for me, since one really needs to be able to see the Bigger Picture in a dispassionate manner to avoid getting sucked into a Bad Sitch in the first place...

the next best thing is to have an Outside Observer at hand to perform the occasional Reality Check. like me. =)

[stronae.livejournal.com]

Yeah, baby. I've attempted to learn how to do this the easy way (that is, without the malice and heartache) over many years, and for the most part, it's been pretty successful. But you can't go wrong with another person's reasonably trusted opinion....

[m0usegrrl.livejournal.com]

yup. ::grin!:: though sometimes people seem to need to learn the Hard Way...

[technoshaman.livejournal.com]

Sort of the "more eyeballs, less bugs" approach?

Aren't UK 3's kinda small? One is just curious...

[m0usegrrl.livejournal.com]

"more eyeballs, less bugs"? yup. you got it. =)

UK 3 Doc Martens are small. =) they're the equivalent of Womens US Size 5. though since i'm only 4'10", they're Just Right. =)

[technoshaman.livejournal.com]

Oh, my. Tiny little Mousie feet.

'course, that doesn't mean that the "a" part of F=ma can't be considerably more to make up for the fact that the "m" that's being applied to the posterior in question is small... :)

I used to know someone with similarly tiny feet and frame to match who was a massage therapist... and when she couldn't get enough leverage with her hands, she'd have you down on the floor and walk on your back. :)

--
I mean, how often do you look at a man's shoes?
-- Ellis Boyd "Red" Redding (Morgan Freeman), "The Shawshank Redemption"

[shadesong.livejournal.com]

And folks like Mouse, who will stand by you and (more than likely) kick your ass when you need it and tell you why and get you to understand....

Yeah, I value the mousegrrls and darkmattrs of the world, who are unafraid to sit me down and tell me what they *really* think and give me that boot to the ass... :)



{

[catalyxt.livejournal.com]

Boundaries and gatekeepers are very difficult to negotiate, you're right. I have a tendency to attrach leeches more than drama queens...although I am very lenient when describing drama queens. However, I have gotten more and more fed up with people who think that my time and energy is a buffet for any opportunist that comes along. Because of this I've had to make allowances in how I approach people or how I vibe, so to speak, in social settings. It's a tough balance to work out, between welcoming honorable and wonderful people in your life, deciding how much you want to hold someone's hand while they go through the lengthy process of becoming a butterfly, and determining where you want to spend your energy and time.

I found that I have a very few very close friends that I trust with my life, a wider circle that I will let see more (but not all) of me and who I truly enjoy being with, and a host of acquaintances whose company I enjoy but will never really connect to me...and the aforementioned leeches, some of whom vacillate between leech and acquaintance status. I ration my time very carefully with them and if they push too hard I am suddenly...unavailable to them. It's not because I dislike them, it's because my deepest priority has to be nurturing myself--otherwise I am no good to anyone else and my purpose is compromised. And the fact is, sometimes you really can't help other people...they have to do it themselves. You can offer occasional support, but often it needs to be on the level of them seeking you out, rather than the opposite...and at that point you can make the decision as to how deeply you want to get involved.

Part of how I let these people close is a function of time. Part of me just sits back and keeps watch on them. Part of it is natural people-sense...if the vibe is right, if they can keep shields up (thus making it easier for me to be around them), I'm more likely to hang out with them and things can progress from there. And, yes, most of my acquaintances think that I'm very reserved when first meeting people. I dislike thinking of it in terms of tests, because I don't set people up, but I do spend time with people in groups and witness their interactions with others very carefully before I let them into my private world. I've found that this can be one of the best ways of witnessing what effect they may have on my world and whether I should let them in. Optismism is a great thing, but is far hardier when practicality underlies it...and it also means you'll be disappointed less frequently.

I don't know whether this will help you adapt coping mechanisms to fending off drama queens, but it has worked well for me, so I thought I'd pass it on. Given your lack of boundaries and recent experiences, having mousegrrl be a filter is a good step until you can set your own boundaries.

Re: how to allocate time.

[wolfieboy.livejournal.com]

Thanks for this comment. I think you stated a significant part of the boundary situation with great clarity.

I find the part of "it's because my deepest priority has to be nurturing myself" to be very useful although I don't always remember it myself.

Re: how to allocate time.

[catalyxt.livejournal.com]

I'm glad you found it useful. Yep, keeping to the deepest priority, etc. ... can be incredibly difficult sometimes, especially when you care deeply for the other people involved and their needs. It's a precarious balancing act.

[shadesong.livejournal.com]

I have a tendency to attrach leeches

I get those too...

deciding how much you want to hold someone's hand while they go through the lengthy process of becoming a butterfly

See, I'm willing to hold someone's hand forever - *if* they are actually going through that process. But the past few people haven't been trying - they've just been wallowing. Wanting to be martyrs, not butterflies.

And the fact is, sometimes you really can't help other people...they have to do it themselves.

Yeah. I always forget that.

*hugs* Thanks. :)

[ilexx.livejournal.com]

see, you're really lucky to have a friend like mousegrrl to do that. i'm kind of the same way, sort of different, but you know that. jenny is often a really good filter for me. okay, more often than not, and i can't really recall much of any time when she's been wrong. there have been several times when i should have just listened to her.

so, i guess this time we'll see. i've put something completely in her hands, and while i'm enjoying it, i'm also curious to see what's going to happen ;)

but yeah. we're lucky. rock the fuck on for great girl friends.

Re: On boundaries and explosions

[wolfieboy.livejournal.com]

I understand about having no idea about boundaries. I'm not sure where my boundary problems come from other than lack of socialization as a child. I just know that I accidently push many peoples boundaries and tend not to have many in regards to myself.
I end up trying to guess at boundaries and oftentimes make them much further out then is needed. This has caused some people to think I draw people in close and then distance myself. This isn't on purpose and isn't what it seems but it's there anyway.

In regards to last weekends blow-up on LJ, I just sat back and watched since it looked like it was between the two of you rather than involving others...

If anyone would think that you were being a bitch with no reason, then they are focusing a bit too much on the event at hand rather than taking in the larger picture. Based on your other behaviours, it doesn't seem to me that you explode for no reason, ergo there is more hear that I don't know about.

Good luck with the boundaries and good for on keeping your optimism about people.

Thank you

[cocomo.livejournal.com]

I don't know you, but thank you for this post. You have just described my life! I, also, do not know where normal boundaries should be, and allow *everyone* into my life. I could go on, but I will end up just repeating your entire post. So, instead, I'll just say Thank You!

Re: Thank you

[shadesong.livejournal.com]

*hugs* You're welcome. :)

[auryn29a.livejournal.com]

Not being a social person growing up, I had to learn things like boundaries when I actually started having friends and eventually lovers. Not used to being able to commuunicate with others and being able to express myself, I tended to gush all over people when I finally was able to communicate. I had no shields, no concept of blocking. I was a puppy. I'm not proud of it but it's part of who I was. I would give everything I was to someone else just for some attention. I pushed people away just by being around them, and I didn't know why.

It took a while, but I eventually realized I needed to learn strength, to learn shielding. It's a long story. Come to think of it, it might actually make a good story. hmm.

I'm not sure if I have good taste in friends. There are certain people with whom I feel a sort of Highlander buzz. Stronger in some people than others. And to me it means that that person's presence in my life will be beneficial in some way, to hir or me. Sometimes it's something as small as the person introducing me to a new band, or a new idea I hadn't thought of. Sometimes I end up teaching the person something, or I become a comfort after a certain event. But it's not something I've honed. I have learned that if someone drains me too much, I need to let that person go, or push them back a little. That's a very hard thing to do. But I can't help everyone. And there are some things you can't teach someone. They have to learn on their own.

Okay. I'm rambling. Stopping now.

I wish I had a mouse filter. That sounds cool.

[shadesong.livejournal.com]

There are certain people with whom I feel a sort of Highlander buzz. Stronger in some people than others. And to me it means that that person's presence in my life will be beneficial in some way, to hir or me.

Exactly, yes - you *know* they're supposed to be part of your life. Mouse and I were like that at first meeting. :)

...Exactly...

[beandelphiki.livejournal.com]

Not much to say except to repeat what someone else said above; thank you, that describes my life. :)

However...

Your second post on your BDSM filter and this one have put some things in a different context for me. (Somone mentioned the filter above, I believe, which made me think of it.)

I don't want you to take this as criticism, because it's not. But maybe, if that filter is for processing personal stuff, you could have made the filter first, based on your own judgment of who should be in it, and then asked (within the filter) if anyone wanted OUT, not in?

Anyway, I remove myself from the list of people who asked to be in the filter, if that helps. Seems like that's not a place you'll be wanting virtual strangers. :)

Re: ...Exactly...

[beandelphiki.livejournal.com]

Or, you know, the filter reference could have meant mousegrrl. *sheepish grin*

Either way, made me think of it.

Re: ...Exactly...

[shadesong.livejournal.com]

Yeah, exactly. :) Just having Mousie screen my reallife friends.. the BDSM thing is something else altogether. *hugs*


w

[astelspirals.livejournal.com]

don't have much to say, except i'm glad you have someone who can help you see the ppl who will be bad for you. :)

[morenasangre.livejournal.com]

*hugs*

I think most people who know you in person, already know that you tend to give the benefit of the doubt, and it takes a lot of irritate you. We knows that and we loves ya because you do have faith in people, and you do have patience.

[shadesong.livejournal.com]

*hugs* back...

I just worry that people who *don't* know me like you do will form a negative opinion of me based on my intermittent explosions...